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Photoshop
in Black & White
Transcript of a live chat with author George Schaub, moderated
by B&W World Editor/Publisher Mason Resnick
Date of chat: Tuesday March 28, 2000
©2000 Photohighway.com; used by permission. May not be reprinted without
written permission of Photohighway.com.
Note: This chat has been edited for clarity by Photohighway.com.
Moderator says: Good evening and welcome to PhotoHighway's live chat Auditorium!
We are thrilled to welcome George Schaub as our special guest tonight. George just got back from running a seminar for the Santa Fe Photographic Workshops. He has written nearly a dozen photography-related books, most recently "The Digital Darkroom: Black and White Techniques Using Photoshop".
Tonight's topic is "Photoshop in Black and White", and is for Photoshop users looking for new ideas, and anyone with a darkroom background who wants to learn what Photoshop has to offer, and what its benefits and drawbacks are compared to the traditional chemical darkroom.
GeorgeSchaub says: I'd like to welcome everyone to the chat tonight.
The seminar I taught in the Santa Fe Workshops - most of the people had very little experience with PhotoShop, but some were experienced black and white photographers and some very advanced black-and-white printmakers.
Moderator says: One of the key questions that keeps coming in B&W World's Printing & Finishing discussion forum is output quality. Do you feel inkjet output from Photoshop can rival a well-done traditional print?
GeorgeSchaub says: Moderator - I have been doing inkjet printing on art papers and have found that while it does not equal a silver print, it has a true beauty of its own. Silver printing has its own charm and character, and I don't approach this as being a replacement for silver printing. I see this as print-making, pure and simple.
Bud says: The B&W prints I've made on my Epson 1270 are quite good.
Bud says: Epson claims 24 years on their Heavy Weight Matte paper. Premium Glossy paper, 10 years.
paul5 says: Do you have to get a new Epson 1270 to get that near-archilval result?
Bud says: Yess, or the 870.
paul5 says: What about my 1200?
oug says: What about the 1200?
Bud says: No, the 1200 uses different ink and the 1270's inks are incaompatible with the 1200.
paul5 says: Can you get the long-lasting prints if you use the new Epson matte paper on the 1200?
Bud says: The 1270's prints have longer logevity because of the new papers and inks.
mrphoto says: epson says the new inks won't work in the 1200
Art says: what is the weak link in the digital darkroom compared with traditional?
GeorgeSchaub says: Art - I don't think there is a particular weak link - perhaps the main problem is making the transition in your way of thinking about how an image is produced, and how you will manifest that vision in the digital realm.
Vana says: George is it better to use the channel mixer rather than convert lab channel and lightness
GeorgeSchaub says: Vana - I just go directly from RGB to grayscale, if that's what you're referring to in terms of making conversion from scan. Some people I've talked with use channel mixer or go directly into the green channel as their workspace. Personally, I've just used the RGB to grayscale conversion and have gotten very good results with that.
Rich says: Any suggestions on how to interpret the menu?
GeorgeSchaub says: In Photoshop, there is an image item on the menu and it is under Image > Adjust > Levels or Curves. It's almost like choosing different contrast grades to print your black and white negatives in the darkroom. The freedom this gives you and the ease with which you can choose contrast to enhance an image is very impressive. This is what makes PhotoShop so exciting for the black and white photographer - especially those who have worked long and hard in the darkroom.
GeorgeSchaub says: I have an image to push.
This is a fairly "normal" contrast grade. Just by working in levels, we are very quickly able to convert it to...
...this.
GeorgeSchaub says: This is like going from a grade two to a grade four when working with graded paper or with a variable contrast filter and multi-grade paper in the darkroom. Here, it's done with push-button ease.
Now push-button ease doesn't mean that this is an easy thing to do in terms of how you want to create an image. You still have to think about what you're doing and what will be most effective to acheive your desired results. In Photoshop in black and white gives you ability to express without taking up all your time in finding ways to create that expression.
edward237 says: hello, i just had a few questions about high contrast black and whites and how our Kodak8670 has a problem from the highlighted side to the shadow side I would like to know what I can do in photoshop to fix this.
GeorgeSchaub says: Edward - If you're talking about losing detail in the highlight and shadow portions, it may have something to do with how you're setting your output, in the levels or curves. My suggestion is to run a step wedge and check it against your printer output and see where you're losing tonal detail. Once you do that, you can then set your output so you will not lose it. Generally, it's about 14 and 245 but that's something you'll have to test. That output is really key to holding detail in those highlight and deep shadow areas.
Vana says: Could you expland on "step wedge" .
GeorgeSchaub says: A step wedge is like a grayscale. It's pretty easy to set up. You can use the gradient tool in PhotoShop and create as many steps as you like using the posterize image adjustment. In other words, just create a new document, run the gradient tool straight across, then go to Posterize and type in the number of steps you need. This will give you a step wedge or grayscale run in this document. You then print this out on your printer and see where you begin to lose tonal detail. This really helps to calibrate the printer for the grayscale and to see where you should set your output numbers.
mrphoto says: Have you tried replacing the 6-color inks with black inks in the epson photo printers
GeorgeSchaub says: MrPhoto - I've been working mostly with Epson colors, mostly because I'm concerned with cleaning the nozzles everytime I switch. I've talked with some photographers who regularly use the Lyson and MIS inks and they seem to get very nice results. Although cleaning those heads can be a problem. I'm not really sure about Epson's warranty policy regarding using those inks. In PhotoShop, you can mix, raise, and do a tone or tri a tone or even quadruple tone modes and get some very good results. I often use color ink as my second or third color to get tonally rich results as well. I have pretty much stuck with the Epson inks for the Epson printer - I'm not sure about some of the warranty issues.
aviator says: good evening George. after reading Dan Burkholder's book on outputting imagesetter negatives, I would like to explore going directly to Epson 1270 inkjet negatives and contact prints. observations? I must admit, many of my inkjet prints have a certain charm, not unlike platinum or other alternative processes.
mrphoto says: thanks, I had that concern too of cleaning everytime you switch back to color
GeorgeSchaub says: Aviator - I'm just beginning to read Ben's book, and find it fascinating. From what I've read, he seems to think that one can go onto different materials and use them as contact printing materials rather than going to negative-type faces - that is, clear acetate. He discusses some oiling techniques for inkjet papers that remind me very much of the old paper negative techniques practiced pre-1950.
chris says: George, could you address the possibility of making black and white negatives for contact printing.
GeorgeSchaub says: This seems to be a very interesting area for exploration particularly for those who want to combine digital with traditional darkroom output.
Mac says: Have you had any experience with Iris printing in B&W
GeorgeSchaub says: Mac - I have just recently started working with a service bureau in Santa Fe called the Image House, and when I was in Santa Fe teaching, I left a few sample files for experimentation. I think that I'll probably be able to match many of the image color results available with the grayscale Iris print, although I know that the Iris really does put out a finer dot that I can get from the Epson.
But sometimes, having finer dots doesn't always add up to having great images. It really just sometimes depends on the subject, the detail, and the broad strokes of tone that may exist in the image. I like working with the printer in my studio, which is an Epson 1200, because I get instant feedback on what I'm doing.
There are also times when I need to get a print out immediately, such as for a story, an article, or just a release print. That certainly is when home printing and studio printing really comes in handy.
JJ says: How long can we expect inkjet B&W prints to last before shifting colors? They may look nice now, but what will they look like in 10 years?
GeorgeSchaub says: That's a good question. In the past, the ink sets for these printers they were not intended for proof printers, or printers that people would use to match color they sent to a publishing house or a magazine. But now the market has shifted completely where these printers are putting final output onto the market. That means that much more attention is being paid to the "archival" qualities of the inks. I'd refer people to Henry Wilhelm's web site which is www.wilhelm-research.com for updates on the combination of papers and inks that create the most archival record. The recent inks with the Epson 1270 according to Henry Wilhelm can last as much as 26 years, and that's in light storage. In other words, hung on the wall. That's pretty darn good.
Moderator says: A quick show of hands...who here considers themselves to be beginners when it comes to Photoshop?
Elaine says: I'm a beginner
Charles says: I do.
lou says: me
howard says: me
Terry says: Me
dcphoto says: I'm a pre-beginner.
Art says: less than a beginner: I'm a wet darkroom guy
Rich says: me
YogiB says: I am!
dsk2uimu says: me
JJ says: pre-beginer
Bud says: sort of.
silver says: me too
anon says: I am, although I've used Corel Photo Paint
mrphoto says: I'm an intermediate
Just_Dick says: experienced with color beginner with B&W
silver says: me too
sukumar says: intermediate too
Vana says: Intermediate
Phillfoto says: I'm a moderate beginner
paul5 says: intermediate
chris says: intermediate
skos says: intermediate
Max says: intermediate
anon says: Working with layers seems to be a key with PhotoShop.
howard says: George- what is the first step you do after bringing an image into PS?
GeorgeSchaub says: Howard - the first step after you have acquired the image is to save it as a Save As Copy or do it as a Save Copy of Image. This allows you to play as much as you want without changing your orignal file. I also suggest starting out by working with layers, or adjustment layers, as this gives you a good way to see the differences between what you started with and what you created in the steps of manipulation. The PhotoShop 5.0 and 5.5 History palette is also a great way to review some of the steps you've made.
But again, the first step is to Save As or Save a Copy and work on that.
The reason layers are important is that you don't clip the tonal values when you're working on the image file. So yes, layers are important, but I don't think anyone just beginning in Photoshop should be too concerned about that.
anon says: What exactly does working with layers mean?
GeorgeSchaub says: The main tools for printing in black and white in Photoshop should be learned first - levels, curves, burning, dodging, and cropping. All the basic tools that one would use in the darkroom or the digital darkroom. If layers are confusing, don't worry about it now - get your priactice on the basic tools first.
Layers are sort of virtual, or mathematical function that can be used on the image but do not affect the original tonal spread in the image.
Elaine says: A beginner question: I use a digital camera. I'm aware of 4 ways to convert my pictures; grayscale, desaturate, Lab mode and toss a & b channel, or select one of the color channels and convert. Which is the best method?
GeorgeSchaub says: Elaine - I generally just convert from whatever file I'm starting with to get it to grayscale go to Mode and click on Grayscale.
corpricom says: Elaine, you can fine tune your adjustment to B&W by using the Channel Mixer, much more powerful than any of the methods you listed.
Elaine says: corpricom: Thanks. I'm too new at Photoshop so I'm not familiar with the Channel Mixer but will read up on it later.
Art says: what are levels and curves?
GeorgeSchaub says: Art - levels and curves are ways that you can do contrast adjustments on the image.
Vana says: George how do you know when to stop with the manipulation. I ask as an amateur photographer and have not yet developed a good eye.
GeorgeSchaub says: Vana - when I teach, I emphasize something called the hammer rule. That means that when someone is standing behind someone else and thinks they're finished, they should just call out the word hammer. It's an old expression that every painter and every writer should have someone behind them with a hammer to tap them lightly when the work is done. It's very difficult to know when to stop.
But with this process, and with this environment, you can eally take it as far as you want and not worry about wasting paper, chemicals, or other types of material. It's virtual until you push the Print button. Remember, when using PS 5 or 5.5 you can always retrace steps using the History palette so don't be afraid to take it as far as you want.
paul5 says: How do you rate your computer prints compared to traditional prints?
GeorgeSchaub says: I consider computer prints to be quite different than the silver prints.
paul5 says: Tell us about the differences
GeorgeSchaub says: If I had to place them side by side, I feel that computer prints match the best RC print or print mde on resin-coated paper that one could get in the conventional darkroom. I want to emphasize that they are two different mediums.
Art says: but you wouldn't call them inferior?
GeorgeSchaub says: I kind of feel it wastes everyone's time to be debating which is better. Both are very valid forms of expression and communication. Just as a litho is different from a silkscreen print, a computer print is different from a photographic print.
lou says: Do you recommend a good reference book for photoshop
Rich says: I've just purchased the PS bible and I find it hard to follow when it comes to step by step
Phillfoto says: The EASY PHOTSHOP book is great for beginners
corpricom says: George, have you set up any inkjet printers for quadtone B&W printing?
GeorgeSchaub says: I have worked with different tonal grayscale inks in Photoshop using mainly the Epson inks. I talked earlier in the chat about some of the problems I'm concerned with the independently produced quadtone inks. If one is willing to go through some pretty expensive cleaning procedures, I understand that the quadtones are certainly impressive.
chris says: George, do you have a recommendation for the best b&w printing paper for scanning on a home flat-bed scanner?
GeorgeSchaub says: Certainly one should not scan from any paper that has a weave or any kind of topography on the surface. That means flat matte or glossy is best. If working with other types of paper, such as a texturized paper, you might pick up some of that texture in the scan itself. That can cause problems.
Bud says: George, does your book cover photo retouching and restoration?
GeorgeSchaub says: Bud - it covers it in passing as one of the techniques that certainly is very important.
One of the most exciting things that a person can do with PS is to restore and save old family photographs. This is a picture of my wife's grandmother that she had in the archives. You can see it got pretty damaged over time.
It doesn't focus upon that alone, however. I'm currently working on an advanced class book with black and white and PS that will be available next year in which I go into restoration techniques much more thoroughly.
This picture is a stage of restoration. Starting to deal with some of the scratches and defects of the image. It works with tools such as the rubber stamp or clone tool, and the airbrush.
Bud says: Thanks, looking forward to it.
skos says: I can repair that photo for you if would like george.
GeorgeSchaub says: If one were to send this picture out to a professional retoucher, it might run as much as $75 - $100 to get done.
JohnJ says: Is there a tonal difference between using a digital camera in B&W mode opposed to using color and converting to grayscale in PS?
GeorgeSchaub says: Using PS tools, it takes about half an hour of time.
Brad says: very nice!
GeorgeSchaub says: Once you're done retouching and refinishing the image, you can always add tone to it or colorize it.
Charles says: impressive!
paul5 says: gorgeous!
GeorgeSchaub says: That's one way to recreate the sepia look you see here.
Bud says: you did a good job, George!
paul5 says: How did you get the sepia tone?
Vana says: That is nice.
Rich says: how hard would it be to sharpen the contours
Phillfoto says: On a portrait you don't necessarily have to be sharp .
GeorgeSchaub says: Here's another image in which some toning has been applied. In the darkroom, this would require you to set up a separate toning bath that can often be quite stinky and also unhealthy if the room is poorly ventilated.
The great thing about the computer environment imaging in BW is that it gives access to creative tools to people who might be chemically sensitive or have developed allergic reactions to photographic chemicals. This is less unusual than some of us like to think. While there certainly are environmental concerns in the creation of any plastic and electronic item, the personal effects on people who work with this tool is certainly less than the exposure to chemicals in the darkroom.
JJ says: we were talking about archival, we just saw how new tools restored old images, maybe we should trust the future to have ways to "care" for our digital info, just like we have new tools for fixing aging silver images.
Charles says: Yes, I know of someone who suffered seriously from photo chemical exposure.
Dan says: George, it also rescues some of us who don't care for spending our days in the dark!
paul5 says: Since mathematics is etermal maybe digital images are the first truly permanent photographic medium.
GeorgeSchaub says: This image started out as a color slide was converted to grayscale after scanning, and then swapped into Duotone mode. From there, I could pick just about any color I wanted.
paul5 says: I'm seeing images on the screen that have very different tones, from warm to cold. How do you achieve this?
GeorgeSchaub says: Paul - by warm we usually mean creamy whites and brownish blacks, and by cold we usually mean bright whites or crisp whites and almost bluish blacks.
GeorgeSchaub says: This is easily done in the Duotone mode which is a subset of Grayscale mode in Photoshop. We can mix inks to match virtually any print color of standard photographic black and white paper, or any toner combination with any paper from Sepia tone to brown tone to even metallic toners like the Berg copper or blue tone.
mrphoto says: do you have favorite colors for duotone?
GeorgeSchaub says: MrPhoto - yes. Some of my favorite colors match the colors I'm used to getting by toning in the traditional darkroom. I like a light yellow to match sepia tone, a light cyan to match a cool blue tone like the Berg toner, and even a light magenta/brown to match the Kodak brown toner.
JJ says: Avoiding chemicals is one advantage, a computer also takes up lot less space in my house.
GeorgeSchaub says: I guess I'm used to these colors as working with photographic prints - but that doesn't mean you can't use any color you like as long as it enhances the image.
Just_Dick says: Is there any way to get solarized prints from PS?
GeorgeSchaub says: Absolutely Just! Here's an example, before solarization...
Go to Filter - Artistic Effects (I *think*) and there's an effect in there called Solarize.
The great thing about solarization in PS is that you can alter the effect in any way you desire, making it more or less intense. I also suggest that after solarization you go into levels to change contrast. In the conventional darkroom, after solarization, I would always bleach the print in potassium ferricyanide bath to lighten it and enhance the contrast. push
In PS, obviously you don't have to do that - so you really have wonderful creative control in your solarization technique.
corpricom says: Solarize is under "Stylize"
GeorgeSchaub says: Thank you, Corpricom! LOL
sukumar says: Is there a market for digital B&W art prints?
Art says: Have PS images made any inroads into the fine art photo market? I'm thinking of collectors here
GeorgeSchaub says: Yes. The market for Iris prints from photographers is growing by leaps and bounds. Virtually every fine art photographer that I've talked with or recently met has told me that they're exploring PS in some form of Iris or inkjet output as the way they will be offering some additions in the future. The fine art market is prime for PS computer imaging and some form of output that we have today or may come in the very near future.
JJ says: would you have to sell the digital info along with the print?
GeorgeSchaub says: JJ - if you presently sell your negative along with your print, I guess that would make sense - but I don't know any photographr that sells a negative along with their print. There is an idea that once you've made a digital photograph, or a digitally produced print, that's it. Every printmaker will tell you that every time they make a print, or an edition of prints, it's different.
Charles says: George, can you advise as to a reasonable minimum amount of RAM for editing with PS?
Max says: Charles - I can give you my answer to the memory question: 64 MB was not enough for PS. 192 MB is.
Charles says: George, is there a way in PS to create a marquee tool of a given pixel size that can then be moved over the image to crop it?
mrphoto says: Charles, yes there is, double click the marquee tool to bring up the options and choose fixed size
skos says: on a doutone ,why do you have to have the darkest color on top
GeorgeSchaub says: That's just the way the inkset works...That's really about all I can say.
mrphoto says: Can you give a description of what your book talks about?
GeorgeSchaub says: MrPhoto - the book discusses some of the basic concerns photographers have about digital imaging and the digital darkroom in particular. It deals with some of the basic and some of the advanced tools available for the digital darkroom. It comes from the point of view of a photographer and not a computer person.
Charles says: George, I have your book. It's very interesting.
tigger says: If you go to PhotoHighway.com Marketplace, there are reviews and you can buy Digital Darkroom right now. I just found it.
tigger says: Thanks. This was a really great chat.
JJ says: I'm really looking forward to reading your book.
Moderator says: Thank you all for participating and thanks so much George for being our guest tonight!
Elaine says: Thank you!
paul5 says: really nice
GeorgeSchaub says: Thank you all for joining in! See this as another form of expression - don't be too concerned for this being a threat or replacement or anything of the kind. It really is a very exciting way to express yourself.
